personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

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dwight92070
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:42 am

Correction:

Acts 26:18 is actually Jesus speaking - i.e. faith in Jesus

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Paidion
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:16 am

Hi Dwight,
Please understand that I am in no way opposing the necessity of "faith in Christ" or "faith in God" or Jesus speaking of "those who are sanctified by faith in me." The passages you offered do not have "God" or "Christ" or "me" in the genitive case. Rather, they use the preposition "εις" ("into" or "in") followed by the noun in the accusative case (object of the preposition "εις"). My insistence on "faith of God" (based on my knowledge of Greek grammar) applies ONLY to scriptures in which there is no preposition, but only the noun in the genitive case.

Hi Homer,
The passage to which you refer in Mark 11:22 at first sight appears to be an exception. Darby apparently thought so. I think it is the ONLY passage in which he translates the genitive this way (by the way, whether or not it is an objective genitive is irrelevant, I believe). However, the Douay (Catholic translation) renders it, "Have the faith of God" (They insert "the" which is legitimate). Young's Literal Translation renders it "Have faith of God." The Concordant Literal Translation has "if you have faith of God."

I might point out that "εχετε," though usually thought to be a present active imperative, may be a present active indicative. Both modes are identical in form. So in my opinion, the passage probably should read as follows:

And Peter remembered and said to him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.”
And Jesus answered them, “You have the faith of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

How would "faith of God" make sense in this case when the context is an exhortation to believe (or trust) in God?
That is not necessarily the context. Here is a possible explanation that makes sense:

Jesus recognized that His disciples had God's faith within them. They probably developed it as they observed Jesus doing miracles through the power of God. They had just observed that the cursed fig tree had withered (or as we would say, "had died"). So since they had within them that faith that had its origin with God, they could even move mountains, and receive that which they asked in prayer. But they had to believe, and Jesus recognized that they did believe.

But even if it's an imperative, it makes sense for Jesus to tell them to have God's faith within them. For "God's faith" refers to that faith which originates from God.
Paidion

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njd83
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:39 pm

dwight92070 wrote:Good article Homer. Apparently the author there prefers "faith in Christ" vs. "the faith of Christ", after his research.

Paidon, the NASB agrees with you on your first 2 verses, Romans 3:26 (is of the faith of Jesus), and Revelation 3:12 (the faith of Jesus). However both of those verses say "faith in Jesus" in their text with a margin note saying: Literally, "the faith of Jesus". In the other 3 verses you quoted, the NASB says "faith in Christ" or "faith in Jesus".

Two additional verses Galatians 2:20 and Phil. 3:9 are translated "faith in the Son of God", and "faith in Christ" respectively.

Apparently this is not a settled question.

How many times does the Bible teach that we are "in Christ"? If we are in Him, then it seems to me that our faith is also in Him.

Dwight
I wanted to point out another idea that "the faith of Christ" is the faith Jesus had in God while on earth as our example, forerunner

Any thoughts?

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njd83
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:45 pm

"In Christ" ...
"I am the vine... apart from me you can do nothing"

Is my opinion on that. I'm trying to figure it out myself

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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:59 pm

njd wrote:I wanted to point out another idea that "the faith of Christ" is the faith Jesus had in God while on earth as our example
That same thought occurred to me.
Paidion

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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:33 pm

Paidion wrote:
njd wrote:I wanted to point out another idea that "the faith of Christ" is the faith Jesus had in God while on earth as our example
That same thought occurred to me.
Paidion, I started researching aion over a year ago or 2, came across your writings and I was blessed to read it. At the time I was unsure, but definitely doubting the translations.
Now I really think the Messiah came talking much about his Messianic reign. the age-during reign, the age-during life. I can't make sense of the whole of scripture without certain Greek re-translations.
To be a butt head about it, man's theology frustrates the heck out of me :)
Have you read certain church fathers like irenaeus who clarifies these topics?

Tertulian - against marcion - book 2 - chapter 23 really did some damage to wrong theology I struggled with, for example


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njd83
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:34 pm

Paidion,
Did you know you can print a 1000 page book hardcover for $30? I kinda want to print my own personal bible. And add in extra books like shepherd of hermas, wisdom of Solomon, Enoch, apocalypse of peter, etc. Use ylt as a foundation and moderize the language and make more literal renderings. You can use "find and replace" in an office doc software to change the thees and thous.
I started that for Shepherd(Lightfoot public domain) and Didache. Takes time!

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Paidion
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:15 pm

I suggest you don't include Enoch. It was not written by the historic Enoch "the seventh from Adam" as Jude affirms. Not only Jude, but some of the second-century Christians thought the author was the historic Enoch also.

In Chapter 54:9 of the Book of Enoch, the author wrote, "The chiefs of the East, among the Parthians and Medes, shall remove kings, in whom a spirit of perturbation shall enter." But according to Archbishop Laurence, the Parthians were altogether unknown in history until B.C. 250.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:24 pm

May be so, but regarding some details it seems it was disincluded by jews for its messianic content. Which some content is mighty interesting to know was believed by certain groups before Christ. Dss.
About the origin of demons I can't part with. Devils are fallen angels. Accusers. Demons are different. chapter 12-16.


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njd83
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Re: personal translation of Romans 3:19-28

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:27 pm

Have you heard of the book of jasher? Read any of it? Some of it may be exaggeration, but regarding some details, history of unknown figures like nimrod and pharaohs, and depth of genealogy, it's hard to lay aside completely.

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