what is 'this hope'?

robinriley
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 1:05 am

Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:22 am

dizerner wrote:
robinriley wrote:(Paidion)
I also don't believe that you "died on the stake with Christ."
You weren't around when He died on the stake, and there's nothing in the Scriptures that affirms such a strange idea.

(robin)
..."strange idea" ... You flabbergast me, truly!

Colossians is one of my favorite epistles, I've just gone throught it again, making some further adjustment,
and looking for "strange ideas" ...thought you might find this interesting ...for your reading pleasure; enjoy.

***

The Layman’s Companion (TLC), Part A, Book 7 of 13, Colossians

Epistolary and Salutation

1:1* Paulos, an apostle of Yeshua Anointed through [the] will of God, and Timotheos the brother, 1:2* unto the [ones] in Kolassai, sanctified and trusting brethren in [the] Anointed: Grace unto you and peace from God our Father, and of Lord Yeshua Anointed.

Reports and messages by Epafras

1:3* We thank unto the God and Father of Yeshua Anointed, the Lord of us, always praying about you; 1:4* to the trust of yours in Anointed Yeshua having heard, and to the love, the [love] for all the sanctified [ones], 1:5 through the expectation, the [expectation] being away-laid unto you, among the heavens, to which an [expectation] you had before-heard, in the word of the truth of the evangel; 1:6* of the [evangel] into you beside-being, also, according-as in every [one], and unto the regulated-world being grown and it be fruit-bearing; and, according-as among you, from which day the grace of God you had heard and had recognized, in truth; 1:7* according-as, also, you had learned from Epafras, the beloved together-slave of us which he be, a trustable servant over you, of the Anointed; 1:8 the [one], also, to the love of you having evidenced unto us, in spirit.

Paulos’ solicitude, and his prayers concerning their acknowledgment of the Secret

1:9 Through to this [matter], we also, from which day we had heard, we cease not praying and requesting over you, so-that to the recognition of the will of Same, you should be fulfilled, in every wisdom and spiritual intelligence; 1:10* you to about-walk worthily of the Lord, every [one] a pleasing [one], for’ every good work fruit-bearing, in and for’ the recognition of the God, being grown; 1:11 in every power being empowered, according-to the might of the glory of Same; into every under-abiding and long-temper with joy; 1:12* thanking unto the Father, the [One] to us, for’ the part of the allotment of the sanctified [ones], in the light having fitted; 1:13 Which, to us, had rescued out of the authority of the darkness, and into the kingdom of the love, of the Son of Same, He had transferred; 1:14 in Which, to the away-ransom, to the remission of the failings, we hold; 1:15 Which, a resemblance He be of the God, of the unseen [God]; firstborn of every creation, 1:16* that in Same there was created the all [things], the [things] among the heavens, and the [things] on the earth; the seen [things], and the unseen [things], if-besides thrones, if-besides lordships, if-besides preeminences’ if-besides authorities, through Same and for’ Same, there has had been created the all [things]. 1:17 And Same be before all [ones]; and in Same, there has had together-stood the all [things].

1:18 And Same be, the Head of the body, of the ecclesia; Which, He be, a beginning, firstborn [One] out of the dead [ones], so-that Same afore-being, He should become among all [things]. 1:19 That in Same, He had delighted, the every fulfillment to down-dwell; 1:20* and through Same, for’ Same, to the all [things] to away-down-change, having made-peace through the blood of the stake of Same; through Same, if-besides to the [things] on the earth, if-besides to the [things] on the heavens.

1:21* And hostile [ones] when-once being, and having had been away-alienated unto the thorough-comprehension in the works, the wicked [works], [1:22*] yet right-now to you He had away-down-changed, 1:22* in the body of the flesh, through the death of Same; to you [as] sanctified, and flawless, and unindicted [ones] to beside-stand, down-insight of Same; 1:23* if-surely you on-remain unto the trust having had been founded, also, settled [ones], and being no[t] removed from the expectation of the evangel, of which you had heard, the [evangel] having been heralded in the every creation, the [creation] under the heaven, of which an [evangel], I Paulos had become a servant. 1:24 Now I rejoice in the sufferings over you, and to the shortnesses of the afflictions of the Anointed I instead-up-fill, in the flesh of me, over the body of Same, which be the ecclesia, 1:25 of which an [ecclesia] I, I had become a servant according-to the house-administration of the God; the [house-administration] having been given unto me, for’ you, to fulfill the word of the God; 1:26* to the secret, the [secret] having had been away-hidden from the eons, and from the generations, yet right-now, was manifested unto the sanctified [ones] of Same; 1:27* unto which [ones], the God had willed to acknowledge what [be] the riches of the glory of the secret, this [secret] among the nations: [The] Anointed among you, Which be, the expectation of glory; 1:28* to Which we, we announce; to every man admonishing, and to every man teaching in every wisdom, so-that to every man, a mature [one], we should beside-stand, in Anointed Yeshua; 1:29 for’ which, also, I labor, struggling according-to the operation of Same, to the [operation] operating in me, in power.


2:1* For to you I will to have had perceived, [that] to a prime-statured struggle I hold, about you, and of the [ones] in Laodikeia, and as-many [ones], to the face in flesh of me they have had seen not, 2:2* so-that they should be beside-called, the hearts of same [ones] having been together-united in love, and into every riches of the assurance of the intelligence, into a recognition of the secret of the God and Father, and of the Anointed, 2:3* in which a [secret] be all the away-hidden stores of the wisdom, and the knowledge. 2:4* Yet this, to you I say, so-that no[t] any [one] should beside-reckon in persuasive-word. 2:5 For even if I away-be, unto the flesh, but unto the spirit I be together unto you; to the arrangement and the solidness of the trust of you for’ [the] Anointed, rejoicing and observing you.

2:6 Therefore, as to the Anointed Yeshua, to the Lord, you had beside-obtained, [then] in Same be you about-walking, 2:7* having had been rooted, and being on-built in Same, and being confirmed in the trust, according-as you were taught; abounding in [the] same [trust], in thanking.

Doctrinal correction concerning Ephesian Truth – Having died with the Anointed

2:8 Be you observing, [that] any to you will no[t] be the [one] despoil-leading, through the wisdom-fondness and empty seduction according-to the tradition of the humanity; according-to the elements of the regulated-world, and not according-to [the] Anointed. 2:9 That in Same, the every fulfillment of the deity down-dwells bodily, 2:10 and you be, in Same, having had been fulfilled; which [One] He be, the Head of every preeminence and authority, 2:11* in which [One], also, you were circumcised unto un-handmade circumcision; in the away-out-slipping of the failings of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Anointed. 2:12* Having been together-entombed in immersion unto Same, in which an [immersion], also, you were together-roused, through the trust of the operation of the God, the [God] to Same having roused out of the dead [ones]; 2:13 and to you, dead [ones] being among the deviations, and unto the foreskin of the flesh of you; to you He had together-vivified, together unto Same, [and] to all the deviations graciously-granting unto us; 2:14 to the handwriting, unto the decrees against’ us, having out-rubbed; which an under-opposing [thing] it was unto us; and to [the] same [handwriting] He has had lifted out of the amidst, to the same [handwriting] having nailed unto the stake; 2:15 to the pre-eminences’ and the authorities away-out-slipping; to [the] same [ones] He had shown, in boldness, having triumphed in [the] same [stake].

2:16* Therefore, any [one] to you, be him [no[t] judging in a consuming, or in a drinking, or in part of a festival, or a new-moon, or of sabbaths, 2:17* (which, of the [things] pending, a shadow it be, yet the body [it be] of [the] Anointed). 2:18* Not-yet-one to you, be him against-ruling, [and] willing in a humility and ritual of the messengers, to which [matters] he has had no[t] seen, intruding; being inflated futilely under the mind of the flesh of same; 2:19 and, to the Head not retaining, out of Which the evey body, through the connections and together-bonds being on-supplied, and being together-united, to the growth of the God it grows. 2:20 If you had away-died, together unto [the] Anointed, from the elements of the regulated-world, to what [matter] be you decreed, as [ones] living in a regulated-world? 2:21 "You should no[t] touch, nor-yet should taste, nor-yet you should contact;" 2:22 (all which [matters], into corruption be unto the away-affording), according-to the commandments, and to teachings of the humanity? 2:23* Any-which [matters], indeed, to a word of wisdom be holding in a willful-ritual, and humility, and an unsparing of body; towards a surfeiting of the flesh, [be] not any honor in.

Doctrinal correction concerning Ephesian Truth – Having risen with the Anointed

3:1 Therefore, if you were together-roused unto the Anointed, to the [things] above be you seeking, where the Anointed be, down-sitting at a right [hand] of the God. 3:2 To the [things] above be you disposing, no[t] to the [things] on the earth, 3:3 for you had away-died, and the life of you has had been hidden together unto the Anointed, in the God. 3:4* Whenever the Anointed should be manifested, then also, the life of ours; you, together unto Same, you will be manifested in glory.

3:5* Therefore to the members of you, the [members] on the earth, be you deadening: To fornication, to uncleanliness, to passion, to evil desire, and to the exploitation (any-which [exploitation] be idolatry), 3:6 through which [members], there comes the indignation of the God, on the sons of the unpersuadedness, 3:7* among which [ones], you also, when-once you had about-walked, when you were living among [these] same [things].

3:8 Yet right-now, you also, the all [things] be you away-setting: To an indignation, to a temper, to evil, to slander, to a shameful-saying out of the mouth of you. 3:9 For’ to one-another be you no[t] falsifying; to the former man away-out-slipping, together unto the practices of same; 3:10 and, to the young [one] having in-slipped, into the [one] beig renewed, a recognition to Same, according-to a resemblance of the [One] having created; 3:11 which-where there in-be, not a Greek and Yehudean [one], circumcision and foreskin, barbarous Scythian, slave [and] free [man], but [the] Anointed, among the all, and unto all [things].

3:12* Therefore, as out-chosen [ones] of the God, and sanctified [ones] having had been loved, to [the] viscerals of pity, to an obliging, humility, forbearance, [and] to a long-temper be you in-slipping; 3:13* enduring of one-another, and graciously-granting unto yourselves; if-ever any towards any [one] a complaint should hold, according-as, also, the Anointed had graciously-granted unto you, thus you, also. 3:14* Yet on all these [matters], the love, any-which, be a together-bond of the maturity. 3:15* And, the peace of the God be ruling among the hearts of you, into which a [peace], also, you were called in one body; and be you becoming thankful [ones]. 3:16* Be there indwelling richly among you, the word of the Anointed; in every wisdom, to yourselves teaching and admonishing; unto psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing, in the heart of you unto the Lord. 3:17* And to every [thing], any which [thing] ever you should do in word or in work, to all [things] in [the] name of Lord Yeshua, thanking unto the God and Father, through Same.

3:18* The wives, be you under-arranging unto the[ir] own husbands, as was meeting in [the] Lord. 3:19 The husbands, to the[ir] wives be you loving, and towards same be you no[t] embittered. 3:20* The children, be you under-hearing unto the parents, according-to all [matters], for this be a well-pleasable [matter] in [the] Lord. 3:21 The fathers, to the children of yours be you no[t] inciting, so-that they should no[t] be discouraged.

3:22* The slaves, be you under-hearing according-to all [matters], unto the lords according-to flesh, no[t] in eyes-slavery, as man-pleasing [ones], but in an undividedness of heart, to the God fearing. 3:23* And to every [thing], which if-ever any [thing] you should do, out of [the] soul be you working, as unto the Lord, and not unto humanity, 3:24* having had perceived, that from [the] Lord the repayment of the allotment you will obtain; for unto the Lord Anointed you slave. 3:25* Yet, the [one] wronging, to which [thing] he had wronged, he will fetch, and there be not a partiality.


4:1* The lords, to the righteous [matter], and to the equality be you proffering unto the slaves, having had perceived that you, also, to a Lord among heavens you hold.

Paulos’ solicitude, and their prayers concerning his preaching of the Secret

4:2 Be you persevering unto the prayer, watching in same, ]and] in thanking; 4:3 praying, concurrently about us also, so-that to a door of the word the God should up-open unto us; to the secret of the Anointed to speak, through which a [secret], also, I have had been bound, 4:4 so-that to [the] same [secret] I should manifest, as to me it binds to speak. 4:5 In wisdom, towards the [ones] outward be you about-walking, to the season out-buying; 4:6 the word of yours, always in grace, unto salting having had been flavored; you have had perceived how it binds to away-judge unto each one.

Reports and messages by Tyhikos and Onesimos

4:7 To all the [matters] according-to me, Tyhikos the loveable brother, and trustable servant, and a together-slave in [the] Lord, he will acknowledge unto you; 4:8* which a [one], towards you, for’ this same [matter] I had sent, so-that to the [matters] about you he should know, and to the hearts of you he should beside-call; 4:9* together unto Onesimos, the trusting and beloved brother, which be out of you; to all the [matters] here, they will acknowledge unto you.

Epistolary and Salutation

4:10 To, Aristarhos, the together-capturable [one] of me, you he greets, and Markos, the cousin of Bar Nabba (about which, commands you had obtained, if-ever towards to you he should come), to same be you receiving; 4:11 and Yeshua (the [one] being said Loustos), the [ones] being out of circumcision; these only, together-working [ones] for the kingdom of the God, any-which, they had become a solace unto me.

4:12* To you, Epafras, the slave of [the] Anointed out of you, he greets, always struggling over you in the prayers, so-that mature [ones] you should stand, and in every will of the God having had been fulfilled. 4:13* For, I testify unto same, that to much zeal he holds over you, and of the [ones] in Laodikeia, and the [ones] in Hierapolis.

4:14 Loukas the physician, to you he greets, also the lovable Demas. 4:15* To the brethren in Laodikeia, also to Nympha and the ecclesia according-to household of same, be you greeting. 4:16* And whenever the epistle beside unto you should be read, be you doing, so-that also, in the ecclesia of Laodikeans should be read; and the [epistle] out of Laodikeia should be read, so-that also you, you should read. 4:17 And be you saying unto Arhippos: To the service be you looking, to which a [service] you had beside-obtained in [the] Lord, so-that to a same [service] you should fulfill. 4:18* The greeting of Paulos, unto the hand, mine. Be you remembering the bonds of me. The grace [be] with you. Amen.
Thanks for posting your translation of Colossians, I started reading it today. After chapter one I came to:

[The] Anointed among you, Which be, the expectation of glory

Could you explain why you translated "among you" instead of "in you"?

(dizerner)
Could you explain why you translated "among you" instead of "in you"?

(robin))
I'm assuming, dear friend from afar, that you are asking about verse 1:6 ... that's a ways to get into this epistle, without a question ... well done!

The question is, then, why is the Greek word read as "among" instead of "in" ...

"1:6* of the [evangel] into you beside-being,
also, according-as in every [one],
and unto the regulated-world being grown,
and it be fruit-bearing; and, according-as
* among you, *
from which day, the grace of God you had heard and had recognized, in truth;" (~Robin)


Notice, first if you would, the "oral" flavor/ rendering of this verse;
that is, the repetition of the conjunction "kai" ... that is, "and" and "also" ...
not related to your question, but interesting, nevertheless ...


But back to the question about the preposition ..."en" [among, #1722 PREP] ...
I think it shoud be read as "among" over "in" because it deals with the plural "ὑμῖν" or "humin" unto you {1473 P-2DP}
That is, the following ...second person, dative, plural pronoun ... that is, "in" works with the singular, and "among" works with the plural ...

That's a very interesting question, you've ask, dizerner .... that is, the reason behing your question, is what has me intrigued?

Are you, then, really reading the words of this epistle ... would that Paidion would ... me thinks that this letter from Paul is my very favorite;
it's the one, that I would first publish, if I ever publish, "The Layman's Companion (TLC)" ... perhaps, I just might start posting on this letter,
give you all the details (that I've gleaned), and try to spark an ongoing conversation, here, about what our ... OUR ... apostle had to say to us.
This is, indeed, a very appropriate letter to begin such a conversation with; that is, Paul hadn't started this particular ecclesia, among (not "in")
the seven (important number, number "7") ecclesias, to which the bulk of his letters are addressed ... that is, he'd just heard of their faith, and
was longing to subsequently engage with them, so this epistle has a rather unique flavor, among the other letters, in that Paul is sending his love
letter out to a group of believers, unto which he's not yet meet, not yet known on a one-to-one basis; hence this letter is different from all his
others, in that it's probing, and informative in a special way ... said way, me thinks, seems very similiar to us, today ... that is, we've, obviously,
not met, face to face, our apostle, so we are, all, at arm's length, both from his perspective and ours, and yet, this is, indeed, "good news" or
gosple we all need to hear and "perceive" ... That is, some 2000 years later, we, too, are in the very same circumstances as these Colossians, in that
we are treated to a very special message from God's particular apostle towards us ...

I'm rambling ... but you encourge me, dizerner ... you, dear fellow, are unique, too ...
God's peace to you,
thank you,
robin




***
τοῦ παρόντος εἰς ὑμᾶς, καθὼς καὶ ἐν παντὶ τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ ἔστιν καρποφορούμενον, καὶ αὐξανόμενον καθὼς
καὶ * ἐν *
ὑμῖν ἀφʼ ἧς ἡμέρας ἠκούσατε καὶ ἐπέγνωτε τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἐν ἀληθείᾳ·

tou parontos eis humas kathOs kai en panti tO kosmO kai estin karpophoroumenon kai auxanomenon kathOs
kai * en *
humin aph hEs hEmeras Ekousate kai epegnOte tEn charin tou theou en alEtheia

of the [thing] {3588 T-GSN} of beside-being {3918 V-PAP-GSN} into/ for’ {1519 PREP} to you {1473 P-2AP} according-as {2531 ADV} also/ and {2532 CONJ} in {1722 PREP} unto every [one] {3956 A-DSM} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSM} unto a regulated-world {2889 N-DSM} and {2532 CONJ} it be {1510 V-PAI-3S} fruit-bearing {2592 V-PMP-NSN} and {2532 CONJ} being grown {0837 V-PPP-NSN} according-as {2531 ADV} and {2532 CONJ}
* among {1722 PREP} *
unto you {1473 P-2DP} from {0575 PREP} of which a [one] {3739 R-GSF} of a day {2250 N-GSF} you had heard {0191 V-AAI-2P} and {2532 CONJ} you had recognized {1921 V-2AAI-2P} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to a grace {5485 N-ASF} of the [One] {3588 T-GSM} of God {2316 N-GSM} in {1722 PREP} unto a truth {0225 N-DSF}

***

robinriley
Posts: 28
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 1:05 am

Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:44 am

(robin)
Sorry ... I didn't read your post carefully enough ... that is, your question concerned the preposition in verse 1:27 ... my answer, however, is the same;
that is, the prepositin "en" can be read two ways, depending upon to what/whom it is addressed... somethings/ some ones plural usually calls for "among"
while the singular calls for "in" ... which leads me to think that it might be of some value to further enhance my readings (TLC) by putting a couble
underlines under the plural things/people ... just to give the layman reader yet another help in better seeing the underlying Greek, beneath the English reading ...

"this [secret] *among*
the nations: [The] Anointed among you,
Which be, the expectation of glory"

Notice, dear reader, that the verse says ..."Which be" ... not "Whom be" ...
that is, the expectation, the secret, is ... is NOT Christ,
but rather, that Christ, Himself is among the nations ... that's the "secret" ...
a whole 'nother gosple, Paul's special message

[Note: This, is where the distractors will come on line, and raise some alternate discussion ...
So then, Paidion ..."You're up!" ... your turn, come on in and give it your best distractive shot...
I know your game, and will always call it for what it really is ... Batter up!... good fellow]

(Used by an umpire to invite the next batter to the batter's box)


***
1:27* unto which [ones], the God had willed to acknowledge what [be] the riches of the glory of the secret, this [secret] *among*
the nations: [The] Anointed among you, Which be, the expectation of glory;

οἷς ἠθέλησεν ὁ θεὸς γνωρίσαι τί τὸ πλοῦτος τῆς δόξης τοῦ μυστηρίου τούτου * ἐν *
τοῖς ἔθνεσιν, ὅς ἐστιν χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν, ἡ ἐλπὶς τῆς δόξης·

hois EthelEsen ho theos gnOrisai ti to ploutos tEs doxEs tou mustEriou toutou *en *
tois ethnesin hos estin christos en humin hE elpis tEs doxEs

unto which [ones] {3739 R-DPM} He had willed {2309 V-AAI-3S} the [One] {3588 T-NSM} God {2316 N-NSM} to acknowledge {1107 V-AAN} what? a [thing] {5101 I-NSN} the [thing] {3588 T-NSN} a riches {4149 N-NSN} of the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of a glory {1391 N-GSF} of the [thing] {3588 T-GSN} of a secret {3466 N-GSN} of this [thing] {3778 D-GSN}

* among/ in {1722 PREP} unto the [things] {3588 T-DPN} *

unto nations {1484 N-DPN} which [One] {3739 R-NSM} He be {1510 V-PAI-3S} Anointed/ Christ {5547 N-NSM} among/ in {1722 PREP} unto you {1473 P-2DP} the [one] {3588 T-NSF} an expectation {1680 N-NSF} of the [one] {3588 T-GSF} of a glory {1391 N-GSF}

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Paidion
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:31 pm

Note: This, is where the distractors will come on line, and raise some alternate discussion ...
So then, Paidion ..."You're up!" ... your turn, come on in and give it your best distractive shot...
I know your game, and will always call it for what it really is ... Batter up!... good fellow]
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Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

robinriley
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by robinriley » Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:10 pm

Paidion wrote:
Note: This, is where the distractors will come on line, and raise some alternate discussion ...
So then, Paidion ..."You're up!" ... your turn, come on in and give it your best distractive shot...
I know your game, and will always call it for what it really is ... Batter up!... good fellow]
Image
(robin)
Ahh shucks, Paidion ... surely, you can do better tha that?
I gave you a literal translation of a whole Pauline epistle ... Can you, then, find nothing to critique,
nothing that need adjustments (I, for one, know for sure, that there must be something that could be improved upon) ...
Or .. or, is it that I'm on to the game of distraction, and now you dont want to play; the playing field being somewhat
more level, in that all the players know the game ... Ummmm?

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steve
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Re: what is 'this hope'?

Post by steve » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:38 am

Robin,

I have to confess that I have not read your posts. I have been on the road for two weeks, half that time, my computer was non-functional. Besides, I find your posts long and/or not easily followed. I am not sure that long, and difficult to understand, posts serve the purpose of a forum like this, but we allow it. What I do not wish to allow is snarky remarks about other participants. You have made some disrespectful remarks about Paidion. You are free to disagree with him, as I sometimes do, but sometimes you come off like a man with just enough learning to make him arrogant, and a cocky youngster lacking the good breeding to speak respectfully to elders. Please participate more in a Christian spirit, if you wish to remain on this forum.

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