Romans 6-8 confuses me. In Romans 6 Paul seems to say that we are free from sin, then in Romans 7, Paul says, "what I hate, that I do" and "Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. "
I have heard people use this passage in Romans 7 as an excuse that believers still struggle with sin, which I would agree with, we still have temptation to sin, and occasionally do. I do not believe in sinless perfection this side of heaven, BUT I do not take this passage to mean that we should continue in knowing sin either.
For example, I have heard men use Romans 7 as an excuse that men will always struggle with lust, ("What I hate, that I do"), when I think that it is possible to be free from lust (someone may fall occasionally, but it should not be a constant daily struggle, otherwise there is no freedom from sin). I may be nieve about this, since I am a woman, but if I can be free from anger, etc., then can't men be free from lust?
Also, is it possible that Paul is speaking in Romans 7 about being under the law? since under the law there is no freedom from sin? Could he be speaking about his past in Romans 7, (pre-conversion), and contrasting the freedom under grace (Romans 6) with the slavery to sin under the law (Romans 7)?
Thank you for explaining this to me. I hope this question is appropriate.
Confused with Romans 7, Please help!
Confused with Romans 7, Please help!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
i personally do not think that Paul is talking about someone who is a "new creation" in rom 7, simply because the description of the man in rom 7 differs from the description of a person who has been converted elsewhere in the Bible. he could be talking about a person under the law, or simply an unsaved person who tries to be good on his own. if paul is talking about himself, i think he is talking about his pre-road to damascus self.
TK
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
hmmm... good question. struggling with sin is different from wanting to sin and pretending that you dont. many fall into the latter category; i.e. they have no real intention of cutting off the sinful behavior. if a person is truly struggling with sin, Jesus said to take drastic action (i.e cutting off limbs and gouging out eyes), which is an exagerrated way of saying to take drastic action. the bible seems rather clear in stating that when we are converted, sin is the exception, not the rule. if we die to ourselves, and allow the Spirit to rule us, this is possible. like Padion is fond of saying, Jesus came to save us FROM our sins. most people dont like to die, however.
TK
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
For the record, it seems to me that Paul is indeed talking about the struggle a believer faces between his heart's desire to please God and the power of sin in his flesh. This is not inconsistent with anything I know about the experience of normal Christians, and seems to be the same idea that Paul summarized in Galatians 5:17 (written to Christians):
"For the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."
In both passages, the solution provided is to "walk in the Spirit (Rom.8:4/ Gal.5:16).
The idea that Romans 7 is about a pre-Christian experience has many worthy adherents, but I do not know how they deal with the Galatians parallel.
Obviously, I have a lot more to say on this subject in my lectures on Romans, where I give several additional reasons for my conclusions.
"For the flesh lusts against the spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."
In both passages, the solution provided is to "walk in the Spirit (Rom.8:4/ Gal.5:16).
The idea that Romans 7 is about a pre-Christian experience has many worthy adherents, but I do not know how they deal with the Galatians parallel.
Obviously, I have a lot more to say on this subject in my lectures on Romans, where I give several additional reasons for my conclusions.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Lis, I too have heard professing Christians use Romans 7 in the way you described. "If the great apostle Paul could not overcome sin, how can I be expected to." They use that argument to their shame.
I, too, see it much the way TK has expressed it. Paul is not describing his condition of weakness at the time of writing, but his condition when he had the law to guide him, but no power to carry it out.
At one point, Paul moves to the present tense, grammatically, to show that he is speaking hypothetically of a person who tries to follow God's law, but does not have the enabling grace of Christ to do so.
Notice in the final verse, 25, he says:
So I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
To "serve God with my mind" can only mean that I desire to serve God. But my "flesh" or fallen nature ensures that in practice, I serve the law of sin.
In the next chapter, Paul assures his readers that in Christ, we can overcome the law of sin by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus:
There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1,2 RSV
I once wrote "verses" concerning my poor handwriting which correspond to part of Romans 7 and 8 in the Revised Standard Version. I think these "verses" may help to understand Romans 7 better:
Chapter 7
12. Handwriting is important, and instruction in it is good.
13.So did that which is good cause my illegible handwriting? No way. It was the natural lack within me (perhaps my left handedness and my lack of artistic talent) which made the scrawl come out, through the good instruction, in order that my poor handwriting truly be shown to be a scrawl, and through the handwriting instruction given to me, shown to be what it really is,absolutely illegible.
14.I know that handwriting instruction is good. But I am a scrawler.
15. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not write the way I want, but I write the very way that I hate.
16. Now even though I do not write the way I want, I agree that the handwriting instruction I received was good.
17. So then it is not that I do it deliberately, but that weakness that dwells within me is the cause.
18. For I know that no ability for handwriting dwells within me, that is, no natural ability . I can will to write beautifully, but I cannot do it.
19. For I do not write the way I want, but the illegible scrawl that I do not want, is what I do.
20. Now if I scrawl in a way I don't want, it is not I doing it deliberately, but the lack of skill within me.
21. So I find it to be a law of my nature, that when I want to write beautifully, an ugly scrawl comes out.
22. For in my inmost self, I delight in the thought of writing beautifully and legibly,
23. But I see in my nature another law at war with the law of my mental desire, making me captive to my weakness and my illegible handwriting.
24. Wretched man that I am! What can deliver me from this inability to write legibly?
25 Thank God for my computer! So then, I of myself (without my computer), write beautifully and legibly with my mind, but with my hand, I write an illegible scrawl.
Chapter 8
1. There is now no criticism for those who write documents using a word processor and printer.
2. For the power of the word processor in my computer has set me free from the law of my incapable hand.
3. For the computer has done what handwriting instruction weakened by my inability could not do; by means of a word processor and printer, it did away with my illegible scrawl,
4. in order that the requirements for writing documents may be fulfilled in us who write not with our incapable hands, but with a word processor and printer.
I, too, see it much the way TK has expressed it. Paul is not describing his condition of weakness at the time of writing, but his condition when he had the law to guide him, but no power to carry it out.
At one point, Paul moves to the present tense, grammatically, to show that he is speaking hypothetically of a person who tries to follow God's law, but does not have the enabling grace of Christ to do so.
Notice in the final verse, 25, he says:
So I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
To "serve God with my mind" can only mean that I desire to serve God. But my "flesh" or fallen nature ensures that in practice, I serve the law of sin.
In the next chapter, Paul assures his readers that in Christ, we can overcome the law of sin by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus:
There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:1,2 RSV
I once wrote "verses" concerning my poor handwriting which correspond to part of Romans 7 and 8 in the Revised Standard Version. I think these "verses" may help to understand Romans 7 better:
Chapter 7
12. Handwriting is important, and instruction in it is good.
13.So did that which is good cause my illegible handwriting? No way. It was the natural lack within me (perhaps my left handedness and my lack of artistic talent) which made the scrawl come out, through the good instruction, in order that my poor handwriting truly be shown to be a scrawl, and through the handwriting instruction given to me, shown to be what it really is,absolutely illegible.
14.I know that handwriting instruction is good. But I am a scrawler.
15. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not write the way I want, but I write the very way that I hate.
16. Now even though I do not write the way I want, I agree that the handwriting instruction I received was good.
17. So then it is not that I do it deliberately, but that weakness that dwells within me is the cause.
18. For I know that no ability for handwriting dwells within me, that is, no natural ability . I can will to write beautifully, but I cannot do it.
19. For I do not write the way I want, but the illegible scrawl that I do not want, is what I do.
20. Now if I scrawl in a way I don't want, it is not I doing it deliberately, but the lack of skill within me.
21. So I find it to be a law of my nature, that when I want to write beautifully, an ugly scrawl comes out.
22. For in my inmost self, I delight in the thought of writing beautifully and legibly,
23. But I see in my nature another law at war with the law of my mental desire, making me captive to my weakness and my illegible handwriting.
24. Wretched man that I am! What can deliver me from this inability to write legibly?
25 Thank God for my computer! So then, I of myself (without my computer), write beautifully and legibly with my mind, but with my hand, I write an illegible scrawl.
Chapter 8
1. There is now no criticism for those who write documents using a word processor and printer.
2. For the power of the word processor in my computer has set me free from the law of my incapable hand.
3. For the computer has done what handwriting instruction weakened by my inability could not do; by means of a word processor and printer, it did away with my illegible scrawl,
4. in order that the requirements for writing documents may be fulfilled in us who write not with our incapable hands, but with a word processor and printer.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Concerning the Galatians passage which Steve mentioned, I think the same thing applies that I mentioned concerning the Romans 7 passage. It is important to keep in mind the state of the churches in Galatia at the time Paul wrote to them. In short, they were abandoning the true gospel, by which people are delivered from sin, and were relying on the Jewish law to make them right with God. And that is precisely the problem Paul was describing in Romans 7, when you rely on the law rather than the enabling grace of Christ --- "the law of the spirit in Christ Jesus".
Paul wrote to the Galatians:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8
What was this "other gospel" of which Paul speaks? Next he recounts his own experience, and how he resisted Judaizing at every turn, including James, who stopped eating with Gentiles through social pressure from the "circumcision party", and Peter, who tried to get the Gentiles to live according to Jewish customs and laws.
Now looking at the passage which, as Steve says, greatly parallels Romans 7:
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Galatians 13:16
So we can see that these Galatians were not living the "normal Christian life". They had gone back to Judaism, and were expecting to be acceptable to God by trying to fulfill the law by mere self-effort. No wonder they were unable to do what they knew they should do. Possibly many of those whom he was addressing were not even regenerated, but were relying on the Jewish law. Oh, I know Paul calls them "brethren", but that was the way Jews addressed each other. Recall that the ungenerate Jews when cut to the heart by Peter's message that they had put to death the Lord of Glory asked, "Men and brothers, what shall we do?"
But contrast this with the "normal Christian life" of the regenerated persons from Corinth whom Paul addresses:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB [bolding mine]
These brothers and sisters were not in a daily struggle to keep from prostitution, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, theft, covetousness, drunkeness, etc. They had been delivered from these things. They had been sanctified.
Paul wrote to the Galatians:
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-8
What was this "other gospel" of which Paul speaks? Next he recounts his own experience, and how he resisted Judaizing at every turn, including James, who stopped eating with Gentiles through social pressure from the "circumcision party", and Peter, who tried to get the Gentiles to live according to Jewish customs and laws.
Now looking at the passage which, as Steve says, greatly parallels Romans 7:
For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love be servants of one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another take heed that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. Galatians 13:16
So we can see that these Galatians were not living the "normal Christian life". They had gone back to Judaism, and were expecting to be acceptable to God by trying to fulfill the law by mere self-effort. No wonder they were unable to do what they knew they should do. Possibly many of those whom he was addressing were not even regenerated, but were relying on the Jewish law. Oh, I know Paul calls them "brethren", but that was the way Jews addressed each other. Recall that the ungenerate Jews when cut to the heart by Peter's message that they had put to death the Lord of Glory asked, "Men and brothers, what shall we do?"
But contrast this with the "normal Christian life" of the regenerated persons from Corinth whom Paul addresses:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I Corinthians 6:9-11 NASB [bolding mine]
These brothers and sisters were not in a daily struggle to keep from prostitution, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, theft, covetousness, drunkeness, etc. They had been delivered from these things. They had been sanctified.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Paidion's view is very close to my own if not the same.
To me, the clincher is the following:
Romans 7:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Along with:
Romans 8:2
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
In 7:14 Paul uses the language of one who is in slavery, from which the Christian has been set free, 8:2. The people of that time knew quite well what being a slave entailed. We have been set free; we only need to walk away:
1 Corinthians 10:13
13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
To me, the clincher is the following:
Romans 7:14 (New American Standard Bible)
14. For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
Along with:
Romans 8:2
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
In 7:14 Paul uses the language of one who is in slavery, from which the Christian has been set free, 8:2. The people of that time knew quite well what being a slave entailed. We have been set free; we only need to walk away:
1 Corinthians 10:13
13. No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Re: Confused with Romans 7, Please help!
In Romans 7:5 Paul says that when we were in the flesh, that is, before we were Christians, we experienced death through the law. Paul says in 8:9 that Christians are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, because they are indwelt by the Spirit. So what Paul describes in 7:5 is pre-Christian. He then says in 7:6 that "now (nun)" Christians have been made dead to the law (of the Old Covenant) in order to serve God in the Newness (the New Covenant) of the Spirit instead of the Oldness (the Old Covenant) of the letter. He then describes this pre-Christian law-death experience in 7:7-25 from his now-Christian perspective. He then describes the Christian grace-life experience in 8:1-17. In 7:6 Paul uses the adverb "now (nun)" in reference to the present Christian experience versus the prior non-Christian experience in 7:5 and 7:7-25. He likewise uses the adverb "now (nun)" in 8:1 in reference to the present Christian experience described in 8:1-17. If 7:7-25 described a Christian experience, then it would be describing Galatianism, which Paul says is a perversion of the Gospel (Galatians 1:6-7). Paul himself never participated in this perversion, and he would not present such a perversion as a phase of the Christian experience. What he is describing in Romans 7:5 and 7:7-25 is pre-Christian. The interpretation that 7:7-25 is a Christian experience contradicts what Paul says in 7:5-6 and 8:1-17, where he makes it clear that the in-the-flesh law-death experience is a pre-Christian experience and that the in-the-Spirit grace-life experience is the Christian experience which "now" occurs as a result of what Christ accomplished on the cross.