Baptism of the Apostles

[jeremiah]

I guess I don't see whether or not one's discipleship began during the physical lifetime of Jesus to be the thing that matters with reference to one's baptism

i was contrasting him with the others in acts 19. where they didn't have the whole story, andrew at least had it all available to him,

It isn't the splooshing of water that means something, but rather the purpose behind it.

... thats funny man, that was my thought exactly with regard to my point. it seems we both have the same number of pegs but arrange them in a different order.

grace and peace...

[Paidion]

But, for some reason I don't understand, it was apparently impossible for the Holy Spirit to be around at the same time as Jesus (John 16:7).

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. (Jo 16:7)

Perhaps that is because the Lord Jesus IS the Holy Spirit:

But when one turns to the Lord [Jesus], the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:16-18)

Paul states twice in this passage that the Lord IS the Spirit, and where he writes of "the Spirit of the Lord", he seems to be writing about this same divine Individual (Jesus) and not about a "third person of the Trinity." In the New Testament we read about "the Spirit of God" and about "the Spirit of Jesus" (Ac 16:7, Php 1:19). It seems that the Father and the Son share the same Spirit. But when Jesus walked upon earth, it seems his spirit was confined to his body. But after Jesus died, he prepared a place for his disciples in "the Father's house", which is Christ's Body, whose Body we are. He prepared a place for each one of us to be part of that Body, one of the many dwelling places in the Father's house, so that where Jesus is (as Head in the Body), all of his disciples might be also. (John 14). So in order for Jesus (the Spirit) to dwell in the Body permanently, he had to go away, and return as the Spirit.

However, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was "impossible for the Holy Spirit to be around at the same time as Jesus." Clearly the Father's Spirit came upon Jesus in his baptism.

Also, after his resurrection, Jesus imparted the Spirit to his disciples in order that they might have power for proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom. This was prior to that special day of Pentecost when the Spirit was given.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace [well-being] be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.” (John 20:21-23)

[Perry]

Paidion,

Thanks for those comments.

I'm not sure I have a great grasp on your model here. You seem to be suggesting that the spirit that came upon Jesus at his baptism was a different spirit (i.e the father's spirit) than that which came upon the disciples in acts 2, (i.e Christ) and, possibly different from what we Christians receive at conversion (also Christ). What about the spirit that existed in John and that filled Elizabeth while Jesus was growing in Mary's womb (Luke 1:15, 41)? Are you saying that there are two holy spirits? And why would Christ speak of himself in the third person that way in John 16:7?

I understand that you don't exactly truck with the trinity doctrine. I'm somewhat ambivalent about it myself. I don't claim to have a clear model in mind for the nature of the persons of the godhead, but you seem to have something pretty specific in mind. You've probably stated it elsewhere, but can you briefly summarize what your thinking on the subject is?

This is starting to be thread drift, and perhaps we should move to the trinity forum section.

[Paidion]

No, I don't think the spirit of the Father and the spirit of the Son are two different spirits. I believe that the Father and the Son share the same spirit. Indeed (and this is an aside), I believe they both share the name "Yahweh" in spite of the fact that they are two divine Individuals and not one.

In answer to Judas' question, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus said that, he and the Father would come and make their dwelling with the disciples. How would they do that except through the spirit which they shared in common? When a NT writer speaks of "the spirit of Jesus", I see this as his emphasizing Jesus' personality which he can extend to any point in the universe, and does extend into the hearts or minds of the faithful. Likewise, a writer speaks of "the spirit of God" when he wishes to emphasize the Father's extended personality. But the Father and the Son are ONE, as Jesus affirmed, and so they are inextricably joined. That oneness is the Holy Spirit.

Your question about John 16:7 would be a good and challenging one to my view, if Jesus actually did speak of himself in the third person masculine. But in Greek there is no distinction between the third person masculine and the third person neuter. He may have been speaking of his spirit, that is, his extended personality as a "helper", saying that he would send it to his disciples. On the other hand, because the spirit of Christ is personal, he may have called it "he" in order to distinguish it from himself in his resurrected body, for he wanted to make clear that he did not mean that he, as the resurrected Christ, would come to them at that time. Notwithstanding, I am inclined to the former view, since there is no reference to the Holy Spirit in the New Testament which is unequivocally masculine in gender.

Yes, I agree with not sidetracking this thread from the topic of the original poster.if you wish to continue the discussion, you could start a thread in a different section. But please post one more message in this one with a link so that I can move to the new thread.